Amazon refund buyer when item is loss in transit
This was an Amazon Prime order, auto-authorised return using Hermes label issued by Amazon. The item never reached us and this is confirmed by the tracking. Hermes now confirmed loss in transit. In the meanwhile Amazon has refunded the customer and charged our account on a high valued item.
So we contact seller support who suggest we file a Safe-T claim, before you can say “cheese”, the claim was denied. So we appealed with a detailed explanation and advised that Hermes will not accept a claim from us nor the buyer saying that their contract is with Amazon. Brefore you can say “goat cheese” claim again denied with this explanation.
“If the package is lost, damaged in transit or undelivered to the customer, then the liability of the loss is with the carrier. Please contact the carrier directly if you want to file a claim for the shipment. For more information about filing a claim with the carrier, visit “Carrier operational issues in Seller Fulfilled Prime”:
– https://sellercentral-europe.amazon.com/gp/help/202192220”
This takes you back to seller support where we started from - did I miss something - can anyone advise the next step as no one is accepting responsibilty and we are left £££ out of pocket.
Amazon refund buyer when item is loss in transit
This was an Amazon Prime order, auto-authorised return using Hermes label issued by Amazon. The item never reached us and this is confirmed by the tracking. Hermes now confirmed loss in transit. In the meanwhile Amazon has refunded the customer and charged our account on a high valued item.
So we contact seller support who suggest we file a Safe-T claim, before you can say “cheese”, the claim was denied. So we appealed with a detailed explanation and advised that Hermes will not accept a claim from us nor the buyer saying that their contract is with Amazon. Brefore you can say “goat cheese” claim again denied with this explanation.
“If the package is lost, damaged in transit or undelivered to the customer, then the liability of the loss is with the carrier. Please contact the carrier directly if you want to file a claim for the shipment. For more information about filing a claim with the carrier, visit “Carrier operational issues in Seller Fulfilled Prime”:
– https://sellercentral-europe.amazon.com/gp/help/202192220”
This takes you back to seller support where we started from - did I miss something - can anyone advise the next step as no one is accepting responsibilty and we are left £££ out of pocket.
46 replies
Seller_B4VbHpnDLDLAU
Unfortunately you are in the much reported on here, the eternal loop of who is to blame. Amazon will say claim from Hermes, Hermes say not your account it’s amazon to claim and around in circles.
The correct answer it’s amazons account and responsibility however since the new returns system has been in place Amazon have no intention of this.
However we have had some reports sellers have managed to get to a claim point with Hermes only to find out that the label is only insured up to around £10-£20 mark
Other than that I don’t know where to go.
Seller_g9A9pMrqcDqa1
Hermes will pay out to a maximum of £20 plus the cost of the label. This thread towards the end shows how Be Warned Sellers now responsible for returns if buyer uses Amazon label
Seller_xUKHc5xSYJmI4
Unfortunately the process is not as clear as you would expect for a courier who has signed up to this service. I have read on the forum Hermes say contact Amazon and Amazon say contact Hermes.
Amazon terms and conditions of returns is once the buyer has initiated a return request the buyer should return the order within 14 days however its been noted many buyers exceed the 14 day return timeframe.
Below is an extract of the conditions of use and sale
We have noticed lots of returns requests exceed the above timeframes so we don’t know when we are going to get the actual return yet be charged for a service. There should be something in the policy which says what happens when a customer does not return the order whether the return window closes because deemed as change of mind.
The above is just a few of them.
We have seen many returns in " We’re are expecting it " status. The information on Amazon says pickup which is not accurate and confuses the seller.
I don’t know they cannot use the UK law when returning goods.
Seller_oGFKRixtdkjxL
Regrettably the system is very badly designed and not fit for purpose - like a lot of Amazon’s bright ideas.
Even if you have an exclusion list, this is a pain, as;
1)Every time you list a new item you have to remember to add it to that list and re-upload it (ie admin increases).
2)We don’t really sell much around the £20 mark ie the level of compensation offered by MH. Our products are generally £50-100, so not covered. Great, well done.
3)There’s no way of choosing the most carrier for the customer to use - Amazon in it’s infinite stupidity have decided MH can handle everything. Even a cursory look at the carrier market the average person would say one size doesn’t fit all. We never use MH for a variety of reasons, we are now forced into paying a company we don’t want ot deal with.
4)The claim process is fraught, I’ve purchased via Amazon so technically Amazon should be responsible for any loss, only they’ve done their best to wiggle out of that.
5)It essentially makes the sale of items under the £5 bracket uneconomic given the return cost charge may state to exceed the item value.
6)The system stinks, they deliberately broke a workable arrangement to scrape a percentage.
7)Give the situation we will effectively have to write off any loss due to MH.
We assume the kick-back from MH for being Amazon’s provider must be a decent one, so we also assume at some stage they’ll use this to leverage other providers into lowering their bulk rates and switch the default carrier - whilst still charging us the same flat rate of course.
We sincerely hope this gets flagged to the Competition Comission as egregious practice. Forcing us to buy a service is bad enough, forcing us to buy a service that’s not even appropriate to the item value and then washing your hands of the situation when it goes tits-up is just ridiculous.
Seller_4EP71c7vPg4eY
Amazon and scammers are thieves, working against the honest sellers
Seller_xb0NGgbuR9fzx
Have checked your return settings to ensure that you have selected the option - I will provide pre-paid label?
For items over £100 I believe you can opt out of the auto-authorisation returns if it is seller fulfilled.
I hope this helps.
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
We’ve actually got one at the moment that Royal Mail has lost in transit. Its stuck at Birmingham MC and has been since 12th Jan.
Doesn anyone know the claim process for Prepaid Return Labels via Royal Mail. Trying to go through the usual process I come unstuck as once again I am neither the sender of the item and I didn’t buy the label directly from Royal Mail.
On aside note - we have been getting Royal Mail labels supplied fairly regularly even though Amazon aren’t able to provide a VAT invoice for the labels - still awaiting a fix on that one as well since September last year!
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
I’m actually just currently in an email back and forth with Royal Mail on this. I have been very clear that Amazon advise, in the case of the Prepaid Return Labels (ie Royal Mail Tracked 48 labels), lost items we should refund the customer and then claim via the courier.
However, they have so far advised I need to have proof of postage in order to make the claim, which of course I don’t have as I wasn’t the sender. I would have thought Tracked 48 would have had proof it had been sent via a post office anyway!
Sadly, it appears that neither amazon or Royal Mail/Hermes have actually discussed how these claims for lost items should be made.
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
FYI - have now had it confirmed that in order to claim via Royal Mail, you NEED to provide a Proof of Postage. So if the customer doesn’t have it, you are out of luck as Amazon Policy for Prepaid Return Labels states you need to refund the customer then claim from the courier.
Glad they developed a clear process of claiming prior to rolling this out!
Seller_xUKHc5xSYJmI4
The Hermes claims procedure is not easy. Automated process which does not work. Sends you around the website adding to the frustration when it takes you back to where you started. Another seller posted a link to a youtube video showing what they do with parcels which is shocking I have to admit.
Amazon refund buyer when item is loss in transit
This was an Amazon Prime order, auto-authorised return using Hermes label issued by Amazon. The item never reached us and this is confirmed by the tracking. Hermes now confirmed loss in transit. In the meanwhile Amazon has refunded the customer and charged our account on a high valued item.
So we contact seller support who suggest we file a Safe-T claim, before you can say “cheese”, the claim was denied. So we appealed with a detailed explanation and advised that Hermes will not accept a claim from us nor the buyer saying that their contract is with Amazon. Brefore you can say “goat cheese” claim again denied with this explanation.
“If the package is lost, damaged in transit or undelivered to the customer, then the liability of the loss is with the carrier. Please contact the carrier directly if you want to file a claim for the shipment. For more information about filing a claim with the carrier, visit “Carrier operational issues in Seller Fulfilled Prime”:
– https://sellercentral-europe.amazon.com/gp/help/202192220”
This takes you back to seller support where we started from - did I miss something - can anyone advise the next step as no one is accepting responsibilty and we are left £££ out of pocket.
Amazon refund buyer when item is loss in transit
This was an Amazon Prime order, auto-authorised return using Hermes label issued by Amazon. The item never reached us and this is confirmed by the tracking. Hermes now confirmed loss in transit. In the meanwhile Amazon has refunded the customer and charged our account on a high valued item.
So we contact seller support who suggest we file a Safe-T claim, before you can say “cheese”, the claim was denied. So we appealed with a detailed explanation and advised that Hermes will not accept a claim from us nor the buyer saying that their contract is with Amazon. Brefore you can say “goat cheese” claim again denied with this explanation.
“If the package is lost, damaged in transit or undelivered to the customer, then the liability of the loss is with the carrier. Please contact the carrier directly if you want to file a claim for the shipment. For more information about filing a claim with the carrier, visit “Carrier operational issues in Seller Fulfilled Prime”:
– https://sellercentral-europe.amazon.com/gp/help/202192220”
This takes you back to seller support where we started from - did I miss something - can anyone advise the next step as no one is accepting responsibilty and we are left £££ out of pocket.
Amazon refund buyer when item is loss in transit
This was an Amazon Prime order, auto-authorised return using Hermes label issued by Amazon. The item never reached us and this is confirmed by the tracking. Hermes now confirmed loss in transit. In the meanwhile Amazon has refunded the customer and charged our account on a high valued item.
So we contact seller support who suggest we file a Safe-T claim, before you can say “cheese”, the claim was denied. So we appealed with a detailed explanation and advised that Hermes will not accept a claim from us nor the buyer saying that their contract is with Amazon. Brefore you can say “goat cheese” claim again denied with this explanation.
“If the package is lost, damaged in transit or undelivered to the customer, then the liability of the loss is with the carrier. Please contact the carrier directly if you want to file a claim for the shipment. For more information about filing a claim with the carrier, visit “Carrier operational issues in Seller Fulfilled Prime”:
– https://sellercentral-europe.amazon.com/gp/help/202192220”
This takes you back to seller support where we started from - did I miss something - can anyone advise the next step as no one is accepting responsibilty and we are left £££ out of pocket.
46 replies
46 replies
Seller_B4VbHpnDLDLAU
Unfortunately you are in the much reported on here, the eternal loop of who is to blame. Amazon will say claim from Hermes, Hermes say not your account it’s amazon to claim and around in circles.
The correct answer it’s amazons account and responsibility however since the new returns system has been in place Amazon have no intention of this.
However we have had some reports sellers have managed to get to a claim point with Hermes only to find out that the label is only insured up to around £10-£20 mark
Other than that I don’t know where to go.
Seller_g9A9pMrqcDqa1
Hermes will pay out to a maximum of £20 plus the cost of the label. This thread towards the end shows how Be Warned Sellers now responsible for returns if buyer uses Amazon label
Seller_xUKHc5xSYJmI4
Unfortunately the process is not as clear as you would expect for a courier who has signed up to this service. I have read on the forum Hermes say contact Amazon and Amazon say contact Hermes.
Amazon terms and conditions of returns is once the buyer has initiated a return request the buyer should return the order within 14 days however its been noted many buyers exceed the 14 day return timeframe.
Below is an extract of the conditions of use and sale
We have noticed lots of returns requests exceed the above timeframes so we don’t know when we are going to get the actual return yet be charged for a service. There should be something in the policy which says what happens when a customer does not return the order whether the return window closes because deemed as change of mind.
The above is just a few of them.
We have seen many returns in " We’re are expecting it " status. The information on Amazon says pickup which is not accurate and confuses the seller.
I don’t know they cannot use the UK law when returning goods.
Seller_oGFKRixtdkjxL
Regrettably the system is very badly designed and not fit for purpose - like a lot of Amazon’s bright ideas.
Even if you have an exclusion list, this is a pain, as;
1)Every time you list a new item you have to remember to add it to that list and re-upload it (ie admin increases).
2)We don’t really sell much around the £20 mark ie the level of compensation offered by MH. Our products are generally £50-100, so not covered. Great, well done.
3)There’s no way of choosing the most carrier for the customer to use - Amazon in it’s infinite stupidity have decided MH can handle everything. Even a cursory look at the carrier market the average person would say one size doesn’t fit all. We never use MH for a variety of reasons, we are now forced into paying a company we don’t want ot deal with.
4)The claim process is fraught, I’ve purchased via Amazon so technically Amazon should be responsible for any loss, only they’ve done their best to wiggle out of that.
5)It essentially makes the sale of items under the £5 bracket uneconomic given the return cost charge may state to exceed the item value.
6)The system stinks, they deliberately broke a workable arrangement to scrape a percentage.
7)Give the situation we will effectively have to write off any loss due to MH.
We assume the kick-back from MH for being Amazon’s provider must be a decent one, so we also assume at some stage they’ll use this to leverage other providers into lowering their bulk rates and switch the default carrier - whilst still charging us the same flat rate of course.
We sincerely hope this gets flagged to the Competition Comission as egregious practice. Forcing us to buy a service is bad enough, forcing us to buy a service that’s not even appropriate to the item value and then washing your hands of the situation when it goes tits-up is just ridiculous.
Seller_4EP71c7vPg4eY
Amazon and scammers are thieves, working against the honest sellers
Seller_xb0NGgbuR9fzx
Have checked your return settings to ensure that you have selected the option - I will provide pre-paid label?
For items over £100 I believe you can opt out of the auto-authorisation returns if it is seller fulfilled.
I hope this helps.
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
We’ve actually got one at the moment that Royal Mail has lost in transit. Its stuck at Birmingham MC and has been since 12th Jan.
Doesn anyone know the claim process for Prepaid Return Labels via Royal Mail. Trying to go through the usual process I come unstuck as once again I am neither the sender of the item and I didn’t buy the label directly from Royal Mail.
On aside note - we have been getting Royal Mail labels supplied fairly regularly even though Amazon aren’t able to provide a VAT invoice for the labels - still awaiting a fix on that one as well since September last year!
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
I’m actually just currently in an email back and forth with Royal Mail on this. I have been very clear that Amazon advise, in the case of the Prepaid Return Labels (ie Royal Mail Tracked 48 labels), lost items we should refund the customer and then claim via the courier.
However, they have so far advised I need to have proof of postage in order to make the claim, which of course I don’t have as I wasn’t the sender. I would have thought Tracked 48 would have had proof it had been sent via a post office anyway!
Sadly, it appears that neither amazon or Royal Mail/Hermes have actually discussed how these claims for lost items should be made.
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
FYI - have now had it confirmed that in order to claim via Royal Mail, you NEED to provide a Proof of Postage. So if the customer doesn’t have it, you are out of luck as Amazon Policy for Prepaid Return Labels states you need to refund the customer then claim from the courier.
Glad they developed a clear process of claiming prior to rolling this out!
Seller_xUKHc5xSYJmI4
The Hermes claims procedure is not easy. Automated process which does not work. Sends you around the website adding to the frustration when it takes you back to where you started. Another seller posted a link to a youtube video showing what they do with parcels which is shocking I have to admit.
Seller_B4VbHpnDLDLAU
Unfortunately you are in the much reported on here, the eternal loop of who is to blame. Amazon will say claim from Hermes, Hermes say not your account it’s amazon to claim and around in circles.
The correct answer it’s amazons account and responsibility however since the new returns system has been in place Amazon have no intention of this.
However we have had some reports sellers have managed to get to a claim point with Hermes only to find out that the label is only insured up to around £10-£20 mark
Other than that I don’t know where to go.
Seller_B4VbHpnDLDLAU
Unfortunately you are in the much reported on here, the eternal loop of who is to blame. Amazon will say claim from Hermes, Hermes say not your account it’s amazon to claim and around in circles.
The correct answer it’s amazons account and responsibility however since the new returns system has been in place Amazon have no intention of this.
However we have had some reports sellers have managed to get to a claim point with Hermes only to find out that the label is only insured up to around £10-£20 mark
Other than that I don’t know where to go.
Seller_g9A9pMrqcDqa1
Hermes will pay out to a maximum of £20 plus the cost of the label. This thread towards the end shows how Be Warned Sellers now responsible for returns if buyer uses Amazon label
Seller_g9A9pMrqcDqa1
Hermes will pay out to a maximum of £20 plus the cost of the label. This thread towards the end shows how Be Warned Sellers now responsible for returns if buyer uses Amazon label
Seller_xUKHc5xSYJmI4
Unfortunately the process is not as clear as you would expect for a courier who has signed up to this service. I have read on the forum Hermes say contact Amazon and Amazon say contact Hermes.
Amazon terms and conditions of returns is once the buyer has initiated a return request the buyer should return the order within 14 days however its been noted many buyers exceed the 14 day return timeframe.
Below is an extract of the conditions of use and sale
We have noticed lots of returns requests exceed the above timeframes so we don’t know when we are going to get the actual return yet be charged for a service. There should be something in the policy which says what happens when a customer does not return the order whether the return window closes because deemed as change of mind.
The above is just a few of them.
We have seen many returns in " We’re are expecting it " status. The information on Amazon says pickup which is not accurate and confuses the seller.
I don’t know they cannot use the UK law when returning goods.
Seller_xUKHc5xSYJmI4
Unfortunately the process is not as clear as you would expect for a courier who has signed up to this service. I have read on the forum Hermes say contact Amazon and Amazon say contact Hermes.
Amazon terms and conditions of returns is once the buyer has initiated a return request the buyer should return the order within 14 days however its been noted many buyers exceed the 14 day return timeframe.
Below is an extract of the conditions of use and sale
We have noticed lots of returns requests exceed the above timeframes so we don’t know when we are going to get the actual return yet be charged for a service. There should be something in the policy which says what happens when a customer does not return the order whether the return window closes because deemed as change of mind.
The above is just a few of them.
We have seen many returns in " We’re are expecting it " status. The information on Amazon says pickup which is not accurate and confuses the seller.
I don’t know they cannot use the UK law when returning goods.
Seller_oGFKRixtdkjxL
Regrettably the system is very badly designed and not fit for purpose - like a lot of Amazon’s bright ideas.
Even if you have an exclusion list, this is a pain, as;
1)Every time you list a new item you have to remember to add it to that list and re-upload it (ie admin increases).
2)We don’t really sell much around the £20 mark ie the level of compensation offered by MH. Our products are generally £50-100, so not covered. Great, well done.
3)There’s no way of choosing the most carrier for the customer to use - Amazon in it’s infinite stupidity have decided MH can handle everything. Even a cursory look at the carrier market the average person would say one size doesn’t fit all. We never use MH for a variety of reasons, we are now forced into paying a company we don’t want ot deal with.
4)The claim process is fraught, I’ve purchased via Amazon so technically Amazon should be responsible for any loss, only they’ve done their best to wiggle out of that.
5)It essentially makes the sale of items under the £5 bracket uneconomic given the return cost charge may state to exceed the item value.
6)The system stinks, they deliberately broke a workable arrangement to scrape a percentage.
7)Give the situation we will effectively have to write off any loss due to MH.
We assume the kick-back from MH for being Amazon’s provider must be a decent one, so we also assume at some stage they’ll use this to leverage other providers into lowering their bulk rates and switch the default carrier - whilst still charging us the same flat rate of course.
We sincerely hope this gets flagged to the Competition Comission as egregious practice. Forcing us to buy a service is bad enough, forcing us to buy a service that’s not even appropriate to the item value and then washing your hands of the situation when it goes tits-up is just ridiculous.
Seller_oGFKRixtdkjxL
Regrettably the system is very badly designed and not fit for purpose - like a lot of Amazon’s bright ideas.
Even if you have an exclusion list, this is a pain, as;
1)Every time you list a new item you have to remember to add it to that list and re-upload it (ie admin increases).
2)We don’t really sell much around the £20 mark ie the level of compensation offered by MH. Our products are generally £50-100, so not covered. Great, well done.
3)There’s no way of choosing the most carrier for the customer to use - Amazon in it’s infinite stupidity have decided MH can handle everything. Even a cursory look at the carrier market the average person would say one size doesn’t fit all. We never use MH for a variety of reasons, we are now forced into paying a company we don’t want ot deal with.
4)The claim process is fraught, I’ve purchased via Amazon so technically Amazon should be responsible for any loss, only they’ve done their best to wiggle out of that.
5)It essentially makes the sale of items under the £5 bracket uneconomic given the return cost charge may state to exceed the item value.
6)The system stinks, they deliberately broke a workable arrangement to scrape a percentage.
7)Give the situation we will effectively have to write off any loss due to MH.
We assume the kick-back from MH for being Amazon’s provider must be a decent one, so we also assume at some stage they’ll use this to leverage other providers into lowering their bulk rates and switch the default carrier - whilst still charging us the same flat rate of course.
We sincerely hope this gets flagged to the Competition Comission as egregious practice. Forcing us to buy a service is bad enough, forcing us to buy a service that’s not even appropriate to the item value and then washing your hands of the situation when it goes tits-up is just ridiculous.
Seller_4EP71c7vPg4eY
Amazon and scammers are thieves, working against the honest sellers
Seller_4EP71c7vPg4eY
Amazon and scammers are thieves, working against the honest sellers
Seller_xb0NGgbuR9fzx
Have checked your return settings to ensure that you have selected the option - I will provide pre-paid label?
For items over £100 I believe you can opt out of the auto-authorisation returns if it is seller fulfilled.
I hope this helps.
Seller_xb0NGgbuR9fzx
Have checked your return settings to ensure that you have selected the option - I will provide pre-paid label?
For items over £100 I believe you can opt out of the auto-authorisation returns if it is seller fulfilled.
I hope this helps.
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
We’ve actually got one at the moment that Royal Mail has lost in transit. Its stuck at Birmingham MC and has been since 12th Jan.
Doesn anyone know the claim process for Prepaid Return Labels via Royal Mail. Trying to go through the usual process I come unstuck as once again I am neither the sender of the item and I didn’t buy the label directly from Royal Mail.
On aside note - we have been getting Royal Mail labels supplied fairly regularly even though Amazon aren’t able to provide a VAT invoice for the labels - still awaiting a fix on that one as well since September last year!
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
We’ve actually got one at the moment that Royal Mail has lost in transit. Its stuck at Birmingham MC and has been since 12th Jan.
Doesn anyone know the claim process for Prepaid Return Labels via Royal Mail. Trying to go through the usual process I come unstuck as once again I am neither the sender of the item and I didn’t buy the label directly from Royal Mail.
On aside note - we have been getting Royal Mail labels supplied fairly regularly even though Amazon aren’t able to provide a VAT invoice for the labels - still awaiting a fix on that one as well since September last year!
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
I’m actually just currently in an email back and forth with Royal Mail on this. I have been very clear that Amazon advise, in the case of the Prepaid Return Labels (ie Royal Mail Tracked 48 labels), lost items we should refund the customer and then claim via the courier.
However, they have so far advised I need to have proof of postage in order to make the claim, which of course I don’t have as I wasn’t the sender. I would have thought Tracked 48 would have had proof it had been sent via a post office anyway!
Sadly, it appears that neither amazon or Royal Mail/Hermes have actually discussed how these claims for lost items should be made.
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
I’m actually just currently in an email back and forth with Royal Mail on this. I have been very clear that Amazon advise, in the case of the Prepaid Return Labels (ie Royal Mail Tracked 48 labels), lost items we should refund the customer and then claim via the courier.
However, they have so far advised I need to have proof of postage in order to make the claim, which of course I don’t have as I wasn’t the sender. I would have thought Tracked 48 would have had proof it had been sent via a post office anyway!
Sadly, it appears that neither amazon or Royal Mail/Hermes have actually discussed how these claims for lost items should be made.
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
FYI - have now had it confirmed that in order to claim via Royal Mail, you NEED to provide a Proof of Postage. So if the customer doesn’t have it, you are out of luck as Amazon Policy for Prepaid Return Labels states you need to refund the customer then claim from the courier.
Glad they developed a clear process of claiming prior to rolling this out!
Seller_SITNVuZK87zGK
FYI - have now had it confirmed that in order to claim via Royal Mail, you NEED to provide a Proof of Postage. So if the customer doesn’t have it, you are out of luck as Amazon Policy for Prepaid Return Labels states you need to refund the customer then claim from the courier.
Glad they developed a clear process of claiming prior to rolling this out!
Seller_xUKHc5xSYJmI4
The Hermes claims procedure is not easy. Automated process which does not work. Sends you around the website adding to the frustration when it takes you back to where you started. Another seller posted a link to a youtube video showing what they do with parcels which is shocking I have to admit.
Seller_xUKHc5xSYJmI4
The Hermes claims procedure is not easy. Automated process which does not work. Sends you around the website adding to the frustration when it takes you back to where you started. Another seller posted a link to a youtube video showing what they do with parcels which is shocking I have to admit.
